Thank you for your reply Justin.
I will.
Peace be with you,
Jacob

jacob-

I don’t know if there are age cut offs for ordination in the forest tradition. I suspect that there are not age limits but don’t quote me on it. I suggest looking at accesstoinsight.org or writing to a monastery to see what limits they may or may not have. If I were you I’d do whatever it takes to find a monastery that would accept you if your heart is bent on the bhikkhu life. Be well in your practice and best of luck.

My own practice is at its best when I am walking homeless with only clothes, toothbrush/razor, and a hammock.
Much of what I am hearing in listening to Ajahn Chah’s process in life resonates in me.

I have no practical training.
At 45, without practical training, am I too old to become a monastic in the Forest Tradition?

Jacob

Hi Justin,

Yes, Bodhi Tree Dhamma Center in Largo is indeed affiliated with Abhayagiri. Jim Cameron leads it and is a lay minister trained there I believe, like Sakula. I’ve spoken to him via email several times and he was very helpful. In fact I had plans to visit there this past March but an injury kept me from making the trip. It’s an 11 hour drive from here.

I’ve written to the Abbot at the Wat in Ft Walton to find out when the best time would be for me to meet with him or one of the other monks. As I mentioned I was there once before. I was involved with the “group effort” here at the time and obviously wasn’t seeing clearly the opportunity that was right in front of me. Dho!

As for meditating in a group, it is very helpful, for me anyway. I really need the discipline of keeping to a schedule. After the group I had fizzled, my meditation went kind of “wobbly” as Ajahn Sucitto says.

Kris

Kris-

As far as the Ajahn Chah tradition goes, there is a place in Largo that supposedly has an affiliation with Abhayagiri. I have been curious to get out there to visit but as a mailman who works 6 days a week it is hard to find the time. You mentioned that there is a Thai temple up in the panhandle. I have also heard of one in Winter Park but haven’t visited either. I’m in Gainesville so Winter Park is probably the closest one to me. It would be great if we could find a few more interested folks in between like you said. There seem to be a lot of groups in Florida but most are Zen, Tibetan and Vipassana groups. I’ve never meditated with a group before, so maybe that would prove fruitful.

Justin

Thank you Dorothea and Justin - I’ve enjoyed this discussion. . . . A bit more on the monastic sangha. In my case I was so impacted by the teachings that I barely noticed how the teacher was dressed or where he came from. Over time I’ve come to understand and appreciate the monastic form. I wouldn’t say I’m attracted to it. I have great respect for it’s origins and what it represents.

I absolutely see how some people might be resistant. And I also agree that, with time, some people’s resistance, hesitancy and fear will begin to fade away.

Justin- it looks like we’re the Florida connection here. Who knows, maybe there are more of us in between and one day we’ll have an opportunity to meet in the middle.

Kris

Hello, Kris, Justin, Antony, and all.

I think there are many reasons why Americans feel resistance towards Buddhist practice within the four-fold assembly (monks, nuns, lay men, and lay women). One is what Justin pointed out: a mistrust of organized religion. Another is resistance to what’s seen as the religious or cultural trappings of the monastic form—the bowing, the chanting, the Buddha statues, the robes, the shaved heads, the monks and nuns not shaking hands with the opposite sex, etc.—which all do make for a culture that is different from the usual one in the West. I think it’s hard for people to see why they need to adopt these customs when a secular form of meditation seems to work just as well.

I live near the Insight Meditation Center (IMS), a vipassana retreat center where most people come to practice the Buddhist teachings without taking part in the four-fold assembly. Most of the time there are no monks, no bowing, no chanting, basically no devotional element. Most of the teachers are lay teachers. And I respect many of them greatly. For example, Joseph Goldstein is certainly a being who’s progressed far on the path. There’s a secular quality to the approach among the vipassana community, and that seems to satisfy lots of people.

One particular area of difficulty with the monastic form is the hierarchical structure of the four-fold assembly—organized by monastic versus laity, seniority, and gender. This really does rub against the grain in our culture that seems to value equality so highly. Unless you’re attracted to the beauty of the monastic form, it’s hard to overcome resistance to these aspects.

So I don’t try to proselytise among my friends who’ve chosen the secular approach. I think all I can do is practice as a lay person within the four-fold assembly. If my friends become attracted to this approach—by seeing changes in me, or by meeting monks and nuns—then that’s fine. If not, I respect their practice and wish them well.

One interesting thing that I’ve noticed, over the last fifteen years or so in the IMS community, is a growing appreciation among the mature practitioners for the monastic approach. As their vipassana practice has developed, more and more people become interested in going to the monasteries in England and California. Every year since the 1980’s, the monastic community of Ajahn Chah has been invited to give a 10-day retreat in the spring. In the early years, only 30 or so people would come to the retreat, and no one knew the chants. The monks and nuns had to explain the value of chanting and bowing. In recent years, 90 or so people come to the retreat and there’s a waiting list to take places in case there’s a cancellation. There’s no longer a need to explain the chanting and bowing. Most people are familiar with the chants and are used to bowing.

On the whole, I think this increased interest is due to the quality of the teaching and the example set by the monks and nuns from Ajahn Sumedho’s community who come to teach. Slowly but surely, as more and more people deepen their practice and are exposed to “our” monks and nuns, I think many will be drawn to the monastic form. I still don’t think it will attract everyone, because we’re all so different. But I think Theravada monasticism has taken root in the West and there’s no doubt that it will continue to thrive.

Two books that relate to this topic are “How the Swans Came to the Lake” by Rick Fields and “The Awakening of the West” by Stephen Batchelor.

In Dhamma friendship,
Dorothea

Kris-

It is unfortunately not surprising to me to hear of the reactions that you got regarding the idea of the monastic sangha. The thrust of the Dhamma goes against the grain of most of the values espoused within society. The things that most people regard as happiness the Buddha points out as suffering. In addition, the idea of a monastic sangha or Buddhism is pretty new and strange to most people. Despite the mistrust of organized religion and jaded attitude towards spirituality in our modern world there are people out there who are interested. It will probably take time. All of us came to the Dhamma despite the strong current in the world that goes against it. I’d love to be part of a group that practices in the Forest tradition. I know that you are here in Florida as well as I but I am a ways away.  If anyone asks you what they have in common with monks then tell them that both monks and laypeople want to be free from suffering. If they ask you what is suffering then i’m sure you can come up with many ways to prod them on into realizing that so much of what they see as “happiness” is really stress and suffering. Best of luck to you, and don’t give up.

justin

Hi again everyone,

I was thinking about what Antony said about there not being more monastics. It seems to me that when and where there is what I understand to be “laity” then there would naturally be adequate support for monastics. I could be missing something of course. Can it be said that it is a simple case of supply and demand?

For nearly 5 years I tried to organize a practice group here based on and inspired by the Thai Forest Tradition. I was surprised by the amount of resistance there was to the idea of the monastic sangha. The general opinion of the handful of people who came to the get togethers was that they didn’t have anything in common with monks and that the monastics come from, and so “belong” to another culture. I got the “old fashioned” and “foreign” argument as well. It was quite an interesting and challenging time for me! 

In contrast there are lay communities like those supporting Abhayagiri and Sakula’s group in Portland. I’m so happy that it is possible for the Dhamma to take root and flourish in this country in this tradition. A bit more patience and persistance will be necessary for this to spread. I feel confident that the monastic sangha will be there when the time is right.

Kris

Hi Justin,

Good question. At this point - in this life? - I’m not even in a position to travel to a monastery for retreat. But yes, I have considered it. I feel strongly that I have either been a monastic at some time in the past or will be in a future life. I am content with the life I have, though this was not always the case. I’ve been married for 34 years and so have commitments and responsibilities that I take seriously. I have no regrets and believe that if not for the conditions and situations that arose from being a wife, mother, etc I would probably not have been receptive when I discovered Buddhism. I must say that my relationships with my family are much happier and healthier as a result of discovering this path. No one else is Buddhist, not family or friends, nor do they have any desire to know about it. But positive changes in me have, over time, brought about subtle changes in them. Ha ha! Sneaky huh.

I wish you the best in your search.

Kris

Hi Dorothea, Justin, Sakula, all,

I’m interested as to why there aren’t more monastics. I suspect it is not because there aren’t enough people willing to renounce the world, but because there is not enough material support from the laity.

I am inclining to remaining celibate for my whole life after being permanently rejected 10 years ago. However I can’t sit on the floor and I have bipolar disorder which requires expensive medication.

My only doubt about the vinaya in the Ajahn Chah tradition is the melodious chanting which because of the long drawn-out tones amounts to singing so I’ve been taught.

I prefer Ajahn Thanissaro’s meditation teaching because he doesn’t just say to know that you are breathing in and breathing out and be patient with the boredom, but also to adjust the breathing so that it is comfortable.

The thing I like about Ajahn Sumedho is that he doesn’t look down on the laypeople.

In conclusion as a layperson I think I can make a difference in helping more people become monastics by material support. I just realized today that it matters that I stay out of bed in the morning as oversleeping has undesirable long-term side-effects in terms of the future of monastics.

Thanks for listening / Antony.

Dorothea-

Thanks for the link to the book, I was not even aware that it existed. I spent at least an hour or two yesterday reading through it and found it fascinating. I will keep Wat Nanachat open as a possibility for me, as it sounds like a challenging yet rewarding place to be. The passage on that monastery in the forest near the Burmese border was very interesting. One must have to have a very strong practice to live and practice in that situation.  I’m still waiting for the folks at Wat Metta to reply to my letter but I trust that they will in due time. Thanks again.

Hi, Justin.

Here’s a book in PDF format that was created by the Wat Pa Nanachat community in 1999 on the occasion of its 25th anniversary. No doubt things have changed a bit over the last seven or eight years (big surprise), but on the whole it’s a good introduction to the monastery. Here’s the URL

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/forest_path.pdf

I believe that men are asked to make an initial visit for a few weeks (maybe two or three). Then, after that, one might apply to be a “pha kow.” That’s the Thai term for an anagarika. When you visit Abhayagiri, they can tell you much more about it. Maybe the book describes the procedure—I can’t remember.

Dorothea

Thanks again to you all for your advice and descriptions of both Abhayagiri and Wat Metta. I will have to take all of what you say into consideration, especially the part about personalities. I am a fairly sensitive and introverted person for the most part so i’m sure that community life would have its unique challenges for me. What you said about Ajahn Chah’s way of making community life a part of the practice is probably a good thing. I will try to visit as many places as I can. As of now, I am seriously considering driving the 13 hours to the Bhavana Society sometime in the next few months to spend a week. If that pans out I will keep everyone posted.  Do you guys know if it is hard to become an Anagarika at Wat Nanachat? I will try to visit and spend time at both Abhayagiri and Wat Metta before considering going to Thailand but I will not rule it out. Has anyone been there or heard much about it? I’ve been to the website and seen the pictures and it looks to be nice. Once again, thanks for all of your advice and input.

Justin

Hi, Justin.

Jaiboon gave a beautiful description of Wat Metta and Abhayagiri, I’m sure that’s really helpful to you. He touched on the family atmosphere of Wat Metta, but didn’t emphasize the fact that the families are largely Thai families (at least this is what I’ve heard from friends who spend time there). The wat was founded by a Thai monk, Ajahn Suwat who is now deceased, and the community that supports tha monastery is largely Thai. Abhayagiri was founded by Western monks in Ajahn Chah’s lineage, so the majority of people who come there are Western meditators. At least that’s my experience there.

Your question about why monks disrobe is impossible to answer—as far as I can see. One can’t generalize, because each case is totally individual. Sakula’s reflection on the fact that monastic communities (like all communities) are made up of various personalities is very important to remember. It’s one of the reasons that it’s so important to spend time at the monasteries. If one is to consider being ordained, one must lose any starry-eyed idealism concerning what it’s like to live in a monastic community. These are people, each one very different from the others. Because we come to a monastery with our own personalities, some monks will make us feel comfortable and others can grate on our nerves—especially when living together day after day. Part of Ajahn Chah’s style of teaching was to require his monks to adjust to the difficulties of living together in community. It’s all part of the practice.

All of the monasteries that you’re considering are extremely good places to practice, and the people in them are “good monks.” I think what’s important is to find a community that is nourishing for your particular personality. The only way to find out whether any of the ones you’re considering fills the bill is to spend time there.

Concerning the fact that Abhayagiri might have a waiting list, this has been true for a while. From early on, Abhayagiri drew more people than could fit into its accommodations. With new construction, more people will be able to be live there, but I don’t think there’s any desire to let the place get too big. My understanding is that, for several years, men who wanted to become anagarikas have found that the waiting list was long. Therefore, many have gone to Wat Pa Nanachat in Thailand for that purpose.

What a lovely adventure you’re on, Justin. Enjoy the exploration!
Dorothea